Curse

Viruzzz · May 07, 2006, 07:38 PM // 19:38

this might allready have been discussed a lot, but i wanted to voice my opinion.

there are 3 major changes to the minion mechanics and skills,
1) limit on minions animated
2) Blood of the master changes
3) verata's sacrifice changes

also the difference of having factions and not having it makes a BIG difference, minion masters have more toys to play with now.

1) limit of minions
This was needed IMHO, i've seen people run around with 30 minions instantly obliterating everything in their path, however this comboed with the other nerfs really screwed players with prophecies only over, they don't get any of the new monion types. they are still stuck with the same old ones.

2) Blood of the master
this is actually well done, an improvement if you ask me, the 10% you sacrificed before, and the higher energy cost made it a kind of.. meh.. skill, it hurt if there wasn't a lot of minions getting healed, it owned if there was a lot. I like the range changes too, it was really hard to maximise the effect before because you were dealing with a heal area sort of spell, and minions rarely group up well for that, they all stand on one side of you, or too far from you to get healed with it
Now, with the changes its a very well balanced skill, cheap energy-wise, somewhat spammable (depends on how many minion you control). it has the potential to keep your minions alive for a long time, and it can kil you fast if you don't watch out

3) verata's Sacrifice
i think Anet did a great job on BotM, but i think they made this skill extremely overpowered, or completely useless, depending on how you look at it. with the new flesh golem elite minion, a lot of people benifit from the 3 minion max instant recharge, by only using the golem. and they can keep a constant +10 regen on it. while the golem tears everything apart
and the little guy with 10 of any not-so-great minion can't use the skill at all, sure, he can use it for a short while , but 60 seconds is overkill.
I think this skill should be somewhat like BotM, it should depend on the number of minions, i sugest something like a base duration on the +10 regen, and then +1 second for each controlled minion, and have it at a constant recharge, but not 60 seconds, 25 or 30 perhaps.
another option is to make it like it used to be, but make it an elite spell. that way it couldn't be comboed with the golem.

the minion master still works. but its harder to do now, not everyone can be one. which is good in my opinion. the faction minions are really needed to be usefull though. the prophecies ones are good, sure, but they don't compare to the factions minions, which means you ahev to get factions if you want to be effective.
on the other hand, i think factions needs these because of the missions being a lot harder than prophecies missions, which were pretty easy, and still are with the current minnion master. allthough monions tend to become very weak against the later enemies, when you start getting above lvl 20

I hope you didn't think it was a waste of time reading this.

feel free to comment, flames wil be ignored

The Son Of Morgoth · May 07, 2006, 07:45 PM // 19:45

No it's never a waste of time reading anyones opinion but i have to kind of agree with you..... half the reason im gettin factions is cause i need it to be a good mm still lol. The flesh golem just tears things apart, and whats especially fun is when you get a monk to bond it........with 10 regen on it......... OMFG PWNT

Sekkira · May 07, 2006, 08:34 PM // 20:34

I agree, Verata's Sacrifice was hit hard and it was completely unneccesary as well. Even before, you could only maintain a minion army for so long with it before you needed fresh bodies. 10 pips of regen for 18 seconds (iirc) and 12 seconds without it while waiting for Verata's Sacrifice to recharge ended up with the older minions dropping, even with Blood of the Master.

IMO, BotM and VS should have been left untouched while only the amount of minions you could keep up was reduced like it was.

Evilsod · May 07, 2006, 08:44 PM // 20:44

The limit on minions is just stupid. 10 is not even close to an army. Which is what they still call it.

BotM is ok but 25% sacrifice is just lame, specially now they screwed VS up beyond use. I just ignore that skill nowadays, its not even worth looking at.

Viruzzz · May 07, 2006, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Verata's Sacrifice: i think it was 18 seconds at 12 death 21 at 16 death

the problem with it was that misinos would acumulate degen that was greater tthan -10 if they werea live long enough, you got to the point where you won't even cancel out the degen if you had enough time.

veratas aura could have used a slight nerf, people were runing fast recharge skills to get it back faster than the duration, but the way it was done makes the skill completely useless

Evilsod · May 07, 2006, 08:50 PM // 20:50

Didn't Veratis Aura last 312 seconds at lvl 16 Death with a 60 second cooldown? I hardly see them needing to run fast recharge skills to do that.

Viruzzz · May 07, 2006, 08:57 PM // 20:57

i mean pre-nerf

Vinsanity · May 07, 2006, 09:08 PM // 21:08

I liked the changes they made on the minion limit and BotM, VS was unecessary. With a minion limit now you actually need to understand the MM a bit to use it effectively, unlike as Viruzzz said, 30+ minions will crush anything in its path and anyone could do it too.

Evilsod · May 07, 2006, 09:16 PM // 21:16

So did i :S

No they couldn't, a crappy MM would never have 30+ minions. It takes a certain degree of skill to keep minions alive that long (and a nice flow of corpses). Nowadays if theres a steady flow of corpses i don't even need to bother healing, i just summon a new minion and replace the old ones they die off. Now thats something anyone can do.

Carinae · May 07, 2006, 09:48 PM // 21:48

IMHO:

Verata's Sacrifice was nerfed because of the Flesh Golem in PvP. The beta-testers didn't know how to counter a level 26 creature under 10 pips of regen. So they cried, and Anet stomped on VS.

The 10 minion limit was also added because of the 12vs12 PvP format.....again, people didn't know how to counter a MM, so MM's dominated 12vs12. "We don't know how to beat that, nerf them Anet!"

What I don't get is the speed that Anet had on this issue. New powerful PvP builds appear all the time, and they sweep the PvP arenas for a month of so before counter builds are developed!!!

I've said it before, I'll say it again:

THERE ARE COUNTERS TO 80 MINION ARMIES, EVEN UNDER 10 PIPS OF REGEN!!!!

Anyone who has played MM with any degree of skill, knows EXACTLY how to play an Anti-MM. But did they give the community time to adapt????? Nooooooo. Beat down with the nerf-stick!

I can't even begin to articulate my disappointment in this awful, awful patch. I am perfectly willing to discuss 'balancing' of the MM class, but this was butchering not balance.

Why waste a skill slot on VS now? I have every intention of having 10 minions as often as possible. Did you really intend for me to let 7 minions die, so I could spam VS every 10 seconds until the next mob?

Flesh Golem: Good for solo-farmers, decent but not that great otherwise. Uses up your Elite spot, not a total wash, but not worth nerfing the whole class.

Vampiric Horrors: Ummm? Not very good at all. Slow recharge, low damage. Advantages?? Well, you can attack through Mark of Protection with these guys, and you get some extra health out of it, but healing was the LEAST of a MM's concerns!!

Put things back the way they were and let the PvPers act like the skilled players they claim to be. Counters are available, hell, some of the counters are over-powered, but they weren't touched!!!

Can you even begin to imagine the screaming if Anet suddenly introduced a 4 enchantment cap????? I mean seriously, if I can only run 10 minions, then everyone else should be capped at 4 enchantments/spirits. Let's call that: Balance!

The Son Of Morgoth · May 07, 2006, 09:50 PM // 21:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

IMHO:

Verata's Sacrifice was nerfed because of the Flesh Golem in PvP. The beta-testers didn't know how to counter a level 26 creature under 10 pips of regen. So they cried, and Anet stomped on VS.

The 10 minion limit was also added because of the 12vs12 PvP format.....again, people didn't know how to counter a MM, so MM's dominated 12vs12. "We don't know how to beat that, nerf them Anet!"

What I don't get is the speed that Anet had on this issue. New powerful PvP builds appear all the time, and they sweep the PvP arenas for a month of so before counter builds are developed!!!

I've said it before, I'll say it again:

THERE ARE COUNTERS TO 80 MINION ARMIES, EVEN UNDER 10 PIPS OF REGEN!!!!

Anyone who has played MM with any degree of skill, knows EXACTLY how to play an Anti-MM. But did they give the community time to adapt????? Nooooooo. Beat down with the nerf-stick!

I can't even begin to articulate my disappointment in this awful, awful patch. I am perfectly willing to discuss 'balancing' of the MM class, but this was butchering not balance.

Why waste a skill slot on VS now? I have every intention of having 10 minions as often as possible. Did you really intend for me to let 7 minions die, so I could spam VS every 10 seconds until the next mob?

Flesh Golem: Good for solo-farmers, decent but not that great otherwise. Uses up your Elite spot, not a total wash, but not worth nerfing the whole class.

Vampiric Horrors: Ummm? Not very good at all. Slow recharge, low damage. Advantages?? Well, you can attack through Mark of Protection with these guys, and you get some extra health out of it, but healing was the LEAST of a MM's concerns!!

Put things back the way they were and let the PvPers act like the skilled players they claim to be. Counters are available, hell, some of the counters are over-powered, but they weren't touched!!!

Can you even begin to imagine the screaming if Anet suddenly introduced a 4 enchantment cap????? I mean seriously, if I can only run 10 minions, then everyone else should be capped at 4 enchantments/spirits. Let's call that: Balance!

True That.

thunderpower · May 07, 2006, 11:00 PM // 23:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

IMHO:

Verata's Sacrifice was nerfed because of the Flesh Golem in PvP. The beta-testers didn't know how to counter a level 26 creature under 10 pips of regen. So they cried, and Anet stomped on VS.

The 10 minion limit was also added because of the 12vs12 PvP format.....again, people didn't know how to counter a MM, so MM's dominated 12vs12. "We don't know how to beat that, nerf them Anet!"

What I don't get is the speed that Anet had on this issue. New powerful PvP builds appear all the time, and they sweep the PvP arenas for a month of so before counter builds are developed!!!

I've said it before, I'll say it again:

THERE ARE COUNTERS TO 80 MINION ARMIES, EVEN UNDER 10 PIPS OF REGEN!!!!

Anyone who has played MM with any degree of skill, knows EXACTLY how to play an Anti-MM. But did they give the community time to adapt????? Nooooooo. Beat down with the nerf-stick!

I can't even begin to articulate my disappointment in this awful, awful patch. I am perfectly willing to discuss 'balancing' of the MM class, but this was butchering not balance.

Why waste a skill slot on VS now? I have every intention of having 10 minions as often as possible. Did you really intend for me to let 7 minions die, so I could spam VS every 10 seconds until the next mob?

Flesh Golem: Good for solo-farmers, decent but not that great otherwise. Uses up your Elite spot, not a total wash, but not worth nerfing the whole class.

Vampiric Horrors: Ummm? Not very good at all. Slow recharge, low damage. Advantages?? Well, you can attack through Mark of Protection with these guys, and you get some extra health out of it, but healing was the LEAST of a MM's concerns!!

Put things back the way they were and let the PvPers act like the skilled players they claim to be. Counters are available, hell, some of the counters are over-powered, but they weren't touched!!!

Can you even begin to imagine the screaming if Anet suddenly introduced a 4 enchantment cap????? I mean seriously, if I can only run 10 minions, then everyone else should be capped at 4 enchantments/spirits. Let's call that: Balance!

Umm... i think there are more reasons behind the nerfing than you think.
Can't be sure why they did it the way it is now.

It's been done, so live with it. It's like many other nerfs (aoe nerf, etc...).

And i don't know what people like in MM afterall in PVP. In HA clearly useless... unless you run MF. And you dont have much chance against any decent team wich has a vague idea on some opaq strategy against MF.

What really hurts minon master in PvP is the Ab. It was your dream right? 24 people kicking the bucket, also some pets, yummi. You can see minon master in Ab in every match. Screw them :P

Make build to screw them. Just put in cc, one well, putrid (maybe on fast casting bases, but i dont think it's needed) and the minon master is done but you can still have an effective build in case of no MM in the opposing team.

The idea is to leave them no bodies, put up well of suffering with like a -6 degen. If the MM is not carefull and lets minions wander around in the wells... sh*t happens. And if you really want to be a great anti-mm necro, strip in 1-2 inteerupts, spot the minion master and interrupt the animate/heal skills from time to time if you can't cc/well/putrid in time.

So MM is an option only for 12v12 Ab. That's where a MM left alone could do miracles with the minion armies if it wasn't the 10 minion cap (bone friends + fw ... ftw?). And Ab is crap anyway, so the old pvp community wouldn't make a big fuss about something being uterly "uber" in Ab.

Of course there will be a new breed of Ab pvp dudes who won't really notice anything about skill combos beaing overpowered since many of the fighting goes on in huge packs and you take damage from so many parts that you can't really see wich one was the "uber", overpowered combo of skills.

So ... Dunno. IMO running MF in HA is kinda noob. Running MM in Ab is intresting, your choice. Can't wait to face your MM in Ab, I know what you do and it will be my pleasure to screw you over and over.

Skarjak · May 07, 2006, 11:12 PM // 23:12

The flesh golem is not that good, he's only useful as a tank. His attacks are impressive but they are so slow that his dps suffers.

Aura of the lich is a much better elite. It basically allows you to constantly use BotM for 28 health each shot, which is easily regenerated if you have vampiric horrors. Between vampiric attacks and constant healing from BotM, your horrors are not dying any time soon.

Fargin Scotchsman · May 07, 2006, 11:17 PM // 23:17

Carinae, i cudnt have said it better, well, maybe, but u beat me to its....also, i agree wit evilsod, upkeeping an army of 25+ required a bit of skill, and if u cud do that, u deserved to flaut ur mm skillsez, but now that max is only 10, a noob jus out of presear cud do it. BotM definately suffered a hit, but since i use(d) heal area, it never really hurt me anyways, now vs, that totally suckd, even wit the whole instant recharge thing. and since i dun have factions (yet), im f**ked over. 10 is no army, specially if ur farmin grenths/snakes/ etc., puny lvl 18's not gunna do much at all, considerin in snakes, smite spells r used, even wit minion bomb, its not gunna do much, and soloin is completely outta da picture. ive basically hung up teh mm title till i get factions. the update wuz a truly dark day in the history of gw, and will continue to plague the necro imo..............

Sekkira · May 07, 2006, 11:21 PM // 23:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fargin Scotchsman

Carinae, i cudnt have said it better, well, maybe, but u beat me to its....also, i agree wit evilsod, upkeeping an army of 25+ required a bit of skill, and if u cud do that, u deserved to flaut ur mm skillsez, but now that max is only 10, a noob jus out of presear cud do it. BotM definately suffered a hit, but since i use(d) heal area, it never really hurt me anyways, now vs, that totally suckd, even wit the whole instant recharge thing. and since i dun have factions (yet), im f**ked over. 10 is no army, specially if ur farmin grenths/snakes/ etc., puny lvl 18's not gunna do much at all, considerin in snakes, smite spells r used, even wit minion bomb, its not gunna do much, and soloin is completely outta da picture. ive basically hung up teh mm title till i get factions. the update wuz a truly dark day in the history of gw, and will continue to plague the necro imo..............

Your post is a dark day in history and will continue to plague the English language until you improve on your spelling and grammar.

Fargin Scotchsman · May 07, 2006, 11:24 PM // 23:24

i do my best

Sekkira · May 07, 2006, 11:26 PM // 23:26

Most of the whining in this thread can be summed up in a single sentence:

OMG I CAN'T MAKE AN ARMY THAT WILL OBLITERATE ANYTHING IN MY WAY WITH LITTLE TO NO EFFORT

thunderpower · May 07, 2006, 11:27 PM // 23:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

Your post is a dark day in history and will continue to plague the English language until you improve on your spelling and grammar.

lol :P
/signed

Evilsod · May 07, 2006, 11:29 PM // 23:29

I agree with Carinae. Just 1 thing i'd like to know thunderpower, if your so sure that wasn't the reason, then what was it? Have Anet even commented on why they completely demolished the entire concept of the MM along with half the skills?

Sekkira, anyone who has played a decent MM will know that you actually need effort to summon a large army. And those MMs will also know that as soon as the corpses stop rolling in or you come up against a large amount of AoE/multi target damage, your suffering huge losses. So please, stfu.

Fargin Scotchsman · May 07, 2006, 11:30 PM // 23:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

Most of the whining in this thread can be summed up in a single sentence:

OMG I CAN'T MAKE AN ARMY THAT WILL OBLITERATE ANYTHING IN MY WAY WITH LITTLE TO NO EFFORT

hey, i liked obliterating things with little to no effort. it wuz especially nice when u didnt need sum noob tank to aggro everything. those were the days, those were the days.........
(back when i new grammar, hehehe)